The College of Optometrists

had my letter from howard barnes today ,if he thinks it is reassuring independants,he is totally wrong,the guy just does,nt get it.

he says ciba have not changed their pricing policy or done any special deal with "high volume outlets" that is the whole point their policy of price based on volume only,with no consideration of no.of patients fitted plays into the hands of supermarkets.

the best he can come up with is ,join a buying group and free freight for online orders.. sorry howard i think even more of your erstwhile customers will be beating a path to sauflon or even coopervision who are not selling the biomedic daily to supermarkets.

I agree your comments about CIBAs policy, but the Focus daily is a good lens. Ciba advertise aggresively. Do you not think the answer is to charge appropriatley for fits and aftercares? Although I have to admit I'm struggling to get our professional fee rate right.

We currently charge £25 for fit or free if joining a scheme. £25 for aftercare. I'm thinking of £75 fit, free if joining a scheme, £30 for aftercare. Patient has to have an aftercare every 6 months, sight test every year.

I would appreciate other peoples thoughts.

have to agree with your 75 fitting fee since this may cover ST, fit, teach and F/U(s). Not sure about coercing people to have six monthly aftercare?! Some may object to this.

We were in a similar situation where we could purchase a contact lens cheaper from tesco online than from CIBA. Talked to my rep and he helped me out.

We have to remember that CIBA dailies is the most worn daily disp in UK!! And it was marketing strategy that made it at that place, even if it second best in terms of performance, quality..etc

Tesco knows that and will want to win CIBA patients' custom even if it's running at a loss. Remember Postoptics!? They were the cheapest around, some years ago. But look up their new prices. Not so cheap now you'll find.

It is rather unfortunate to be in a situation where if you purchase 10,000 boxes of dailies you can get up to let say 30-40% discount on list price. But it is the band discount CIBA ran to win the daily disp market. Other CL manufacturers do not offer as big discount bands. I think Howard is right in telling us to join buying groups to obtain those discount levels.

Maybe from now on, we will fit contact lenses more on the merit of suitability to patient and merit of cl manufacturers. But the way forward is to match the trendsetters i.e. tesco's prices and specsavers new prices. Charge professional fees accordingly. £40 - £50 per year seems not bad.

The proble withcharging proffesional fees is that in the end the multiples will drop the fees to put you out of business.Furthermore the Px will just purchase direct without aftercare.

We live in a free society px may decide they dont need you aftercare, some websites send CL out without RX verification.

This is why we must fight fo rgood prices so we can compete on the price of lenses.

What are you going to do if the likes ofTescos offer cheap lenses, cheap fitting and aftercare.

Dont be fooled into thinking that yo ucharge high aftercare fees, in the long run they wont hold.

Where do you get the 30-40% discount figure? What if it was 70-80%? Would that lead you to believe you are being ripped off?

Howard Barnes wrote a 10 point A4 page saying absolutely nothing. Why bother?

Does he think we are so stupid as to accept this ludicrous situation?

If we all stop prescribing Ciba product, they will quickly notice the difference. No more high margins and a drop in volume. Goodbye to their profitiability!

The list price of 1 box of 30 lenses is £9. If it was 70% discount, then I would be paying 0.3 x £9 =£2.70. (this equates to 9p a lens cheaper than 14p provis charges) That's equiv to 2.70 x 24 = £64.80 + vat + postage. Let's us suppose that's £100 then. Selling for £57 3/12 supply, brings £228 annually. So do you really think Tesco is making £128 on a year's sale!? be real. No one gets this amount of discount.

In my Practice, yearly soft and RGP are in incresing demand, patients wants lens made to them not the other way around!!!!

I agree the daily is a good lens,however there is no point in fitting it if you are going to lose that patient to a supermarket.Fitting fees of 75.00 are all very well but will only work if we all do it, and we know that is not going to happen.J&J have got their pricing correct,ciba could stop this nonsense if the price banding was less spread,I dont think Tesco or asda are taking a loss on the lenses.So come on howard how about putting us all on the same price band as tesco and asda,then we can fight our corner and can make a bit of profit from both lenses and fees.As it stands if you put a first time wearer into dailies you run a much higher risk of losing that patient than if you fit them with an alternative.

Give the guy a break!As he says Ciba have not changed anything.It is our representatives on the GOC we should be complaining to for it is they who allowed the new rules to come into force.The GOC have capitulated to pressure from government to make the cl market more competitive instead of standing up for us.It also seems very strange that the GOC spokesperson on this matter is not even an Optometrist but a (retired)Ophthalmologist!

Here we go again, round two and we are all still reacting to this Howard Barnes character and personally seaking he is taking the mick.

The only way this scenario should have been addressed is by way of a simple pricing structure like Vistakon's and if tesco's want to sell at a loss than let them as it won't last long.

I still say as i did in the first volley that we the independants must form an association where all are accounts are grouped together irrelevant of the trading names and then look at our collective spend. I have just done it with my practices even though they are under different names and you know what it works, and now am under a different banding.

You must agree that H Barnes and Ciba are in a real pickle right now and are looking for a way out and we can use this to our advantage if we agree to act united.

Yes there will be practices in the proposed group whose annual spend may not be anywhere near yours and as such you may feel that they are benefitting. One must look at this type of scenario as belonging to a group to secure your profitability and the more indies there are then the more clout you have.

One thing that this rather unclear section 60 has brought about ladies and gentlemen, is that UNITY is severely lacking in our industry and this is the only chance we have to sow the seed. We have been in battle against each other for far too long and a chance should be given to try out a united independants buying Group.

I think that there has been enough talk on this subject and time has come to act, but not by changing your choice to Sauflon who says that they only supply opticians. Remember that Asda & Tesco's also have optometric services. So what will you do when Sauflon have to supply tesco's opticians?? Back to square one.

I am ready to organise this buying group to take the first step and no doubt will need your enthuiastic support to launch it at the right level. can you imagine what Ciba will think if an independant group of even a few hundred practices calls an official shot.

COME ON LETS ACT NOW

please e-mail me on the address given with your views.

regards

thehitman

sorry my e-mail address

robertocio@aol.com

Your figures are interesting, but here are some real ones!

One company, nameless for the moment, will shortly be retailing Ciba Dailies for less than £81 for 360 lenses. They are also selling Ciba AOSept 3 bottle packs for £10.56 inc Vat. They are making money on these prices, so what price do you think they are paying Ciba for the products?

Your comment is even more interesting.

I have to laugh or cry!?

Across the pond, in the states, 90 day supply of focus dailies cost $72(internet) and converted in sterling comes up to £40 + shipping charges and VAT at customs.

If a company in UK is selling a year's supply for £81. Good luck to them. They'll beat CIBA head office millions time round and will win the world market. I'll buy from them

daysoft(R)uv 58% obtained CE Approval last week and I will be happy to send Trial lenses to readers ahead of the formal launch scheduled in a couple of weeks time, email me on ron.hamilton@daysoftuv.com

daysoft(R)uv 72% has proved itself effective replacement for Soflens one-day (72%) and Trials confirm that our new lens (daysoftuv 58%) will prove to do the same againsy CIBA and J&J at a fraction of the cost. Both are priced the same, available in a wider power range than any other one-day lens, have no minimum order quantities and are not available in Supermarkets.

Regards

Ron

I still say lets get together and start a nationwide buying association.

Ron

are you saying that if Tesco's or Asda 'Opticians want to sell your lenses that you will not supply them. And would they have any legal rights to obtain your lenses?

your comments would be welcome

Dear Hitman

No honest businessman would ever give a permanent undertaking never to supply any particular customer nor to purchase from any particular supplier. The facts are that Provis does not supply Supermarkets and has no plans to do so.

Manufacturers are under no legal obligations to supply nor to continue to supply any customer including Supermarkets despite what you may have read or been advised to the contrary.

Regards

Ron

It is actually £81 for 360 lenses, i.e. 6 month's supply

Perhaps Ciba would like to comment

Just as i thought, so no guarantees. Its all driven by profit just as we are, except now we want some guarantees that battles will be done on a more level playing field and not like Ciba who deliver the best prices to the volume buyers.

So you see ladies and gents, the more of us who get together, the more leverage we will have.

I rest my case.

Thanks for the reply Ron

If you are thinking of setting up a buying group there has to be benefits to BOTH parties not just one.There needs to be large volume to enable price discounts to be applied ,there will only be one account to be paid at the end of the month and not 347 seperate accounts to be issued and cheques to be cashed.If things were so simple we would all have group purchasing for many items -both optical and non optical.Market forces are being applied to optics as they are in other businesses.

Graeme,

i am currently operating such a system with a dozen practioners and you may be informed that it does work and each practice receives and pays its own bills. The spend is looked at collectively and hence discounts are negotiated with ease. Yes the suppliers did have hesitations initially, but after a few meeetings, we all found middle ground and now enjoy good margins. i am only voicing my opinion at the current fears and frustrations of alot of colleagues across the country. It is all too often that there are people who criticise any new initiatives and don't come forward with any constructive input and as such the indies have not moved forward or are in any position to act jointly to safeguard their businesses. Thats why the suppiers, GOS, GOC ETC ETC continue to move the goal posts that are doing us no favours at all.

This golden oportunity to unite may be lost. The future with the multiples and grocers now directing the suppliers is not looking too rosy for the independants. May be I should just shut up and continue looking after our small but carefully selected group.

Hitman, what do you call good prices,

ow much does your buying group get lenses for?

Finkle

you know i can't put my prices on the nettalk site as it could hinder our deals. i will happily discuss prices when i know who i am talking to. Then i can add them to our gang once they understand the requirements of belonging to a buying group. If you are interested then e-mail me your name, contact and practice details and your approx annual spend with the suppliers.

By the way this goes for anyone else who may be interested.

Just to give you an example, you will be able to sell Focus dailies & B&l, at around £60 for 90 pairs, but you will still have to agree to raise your fees if you havent done so already. This pricing will also apply to the rest of product range too.

i need to know how much interest there really is to ascertain the level of leverage we can have. The way i see it at the moment is that people are happy to moan about CIBA and others but thats all and NO ACTION?. Why???

Howard Barnes letter quite clearly suggested joining a buying group, Hint Hint, so that we may get better prices.

So why not use this opportunity to create a powerful country wide group with a very simple constitution.

please respond to my e-mail with your comments.

regards

Dear Hitman

Supermarkets will always demand, and get, the lowest price from suppliers. The key is not price (important as that is) but Brand. Independends need differentiation based on service and, more importantly, Brand ie a Brand not sold in Supermarkets ... dare I say it again, daysoftuv 72% and now daysoftuv 58% are not sold in Supermarkets. Mr Banner is simply saying "come into my parlour".

Regards

Ron

Ron

no disrespect, but with that type of a business ethos, why aren't you the number one supplier in the market? i think its nice of you to involve yourself in this debate, but we just won't trust any supplier and it definetely has to do with the price as margins are so low in contact lenses. Yes you too can tell us like my mate Howard Barnes that we haven't been charging enough for our fees, but we haven't had the opportunity of uniting until now and not one professional body has done otherwise to help push the fees upwards. This BCLA's are only for pushing and promoting products by the suppliers and thats it.

So you see the solution isn't as simple as switching our customers to your lenses or any other because there will be this obstacle of trusting your supply/ distribution.

I don't deal with any company that doesn't call on me, hence i don't entertain yours.

Just watch the space as new scenarios are rapidly developing and will be announced in a matter of weeks.

Hey don't mis-read my comments as frustration targetted to you, its just the flavour right now.

i would still like to see a rep from your company.

regards

hitman

You want to see one from Ron! I'd like to see one from Barnes' mob!! Despite requests for reps to attend they simply don't appear. Maybe they have done away with all(most) of that superb Pilk workforce that they aquired.

I dont know why you cant put prices onthe net, if we are supposed to be acting as a transparent group.

everyone knows SSavers gets dailies at approx 12p per lens, whether or not the branches get this price is another matter.

the more open you are about price sthe more members you will gain.

JJ will not drop their prices below the ace price.

CVison are AH`s, okay the product is good but lets face it they want to go direct to the public and not via opticians.

In the days of old architectcs had to design extensions, the law changed and now this is no lomger the situation.

This will happen in optics, the public will be encouraged to bypass us, it will be implied that A/Care is a waste of time.

That leaves B&L, Provis and Biomedics.

So to these manus I say the first to respond and supply indoes at sub 16p prices will clean up.

Respond to the situation in these columns we want to hear from you.

Hitman,

Does that include prof fees.

I have two practises and pay sub24p for cibs dsilies, I would expexct you to be achieving sub 19p if you have a decent buying group.

Dear Hitman

I appreciate the chance to participate in the debate and do so because the issues raised by the entry of Supermarkets will have a profound effect on the market and the role of Independents and, as a consequence, on my business. So please bear with me as I try to make my position clear.

Price and Service are important but selling the same brands as Supermarkets is a fundamentally flawed strategy. Think about it. All I wish to point out is that Provis offers Independents a brand which is not in Supermarkets and at very competetive prices.

You ask why we are not brand leaders. Over 60% of our business is outside the UK. Our daysoftuv 72% lens did not offer a wide enough fitting choice for many of our UK customers ... we have now launched daysoftuv 58% ... both in a wider power range than our competitors. Provis will continue to develop its product range and performance until we are the world's biggest producer of one-day lenses ... and we still won't employ a Rep.

Regards

Ron

finkle your prices for ciba are high and should atleast be 21p a lens. I agree that an acceptable price for dailies should be circa 17p and its not un-achievable, if we all unite.

I have taken the liberty of setting up an e-mail account in the name of ukindependants@aol.com to send and receive any correspondence and hope to start collating info from you guys.

By the way, did you know that there is a parallel import route from the continent of contact lenses same as the designer frames? i have been quoted 6 euros for a box of Focus dailies, thats £ 4.50 a box which is 15 pence a lens. So there is alot of margin which the uk supliers are making out of us the non united indies.

Come on finkle, why don't a few of us with strong views get together and take on this challenge and make a long awaited change in the c/lens market in the uk. i am getting a little disheartened at the response and yet the views on the net are so volatile.

regards

thehitman

Okay I will email you in a couple of days.

Dont be surprised at the respoinse you fail to achieve.

Remember most people moan but wont get involved in the fight, remember the playground, the same rule applies.

Of course I am interested in getting lenses for 15p who woudnt?

Thanks for the info, keep your chin up!

Is just me or does the chap on page 4 of the Optician look like David Brent?

hitman i will be in touch,i will be delighted to join your group, also perhaps an ad in the optician would generate a better response,not everybody can access this forum.

Guys its not my buying group and as such i don't want it to be. It is our buying group and the suppliers will have to deal with all of us if they step out of line like CIBA.

No doubt CIBA are looking at our postings and to you CIBA vision, why haven't you tried to contact me like all the other manufacturers, yes all the rest, and try to do a deal with me, for the uk indies. i am waiting but not for long, and you can't sustain the current and ever decreasing turnover figures.

sorry guys they really have wound me up.

regards

hitman